WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.050 Matthew Schmidt: Recording started. 2 00:00:02.669 --> 00:00:09.030 Matthew Schmidt: Welcome everyone to yet another installation of the learning experience design webinar series. 3 00:00:09.360 --> 00:00:10.679 Matthew Schmidt: presented by the AC. 4 00:00:10.679 --> 00:00:18.720 Matthew Schmidt: T design and development division I Matthew Schmidt, President of the design and development division and today I am pleased to introduce neil's for. 5 00:00:19.260 --> 00:00:32.400 Matthew Schmidt: I have a bio that i'm going to read to you for neil's and then i'm going to pass the microphone to him neil's for is a pioneer in the field of learning experience design he's dedicated his professional life. 6 00:00:32.400 --> 00:00:34.140 Matthew Schmidt: To the application development. 7 00:00:34.170 --> 00:00:53.820 Matthew Schmidt: and promotion of Alex de since 2007 as the creator of the learning experience canvas initiator of the LSD conference LSD con and founder of LSD or neil's is absolutely a driving force in the global LSD Community he's also the owner of. 8 00:00:53.820 --> 00:01:10.860 Matthew Schmidt: shapers and international lx design and training agency located and who tracked in the Netherlands, he co founded the company in 2001 after studying graphic design and obtaining a master's degree in interaction design from the University of Portsmouth. 9 00:01:11.940 --> 00:01:25.470 Matthew Schmidt: After a couple of years of working as a designer Neil Neil started to teach interaction design user experience design media theory and learning experience design several Dutch universities, he also ran a six month Alex D Program. 10 00:01:25.800 --> 00:01:27.840 Matthew Schmidt: For 2009 to 2015. 11 00:01:28.320 --> 00:01:32.070 Matthew Schmidt: At heavens University of applied sciences and breda. 12 00:01:32.130 --> 00:01:33.090 Niels Floor: And then other ones. 13 00:01:34.500 --> 00:01:48.720 Matthew Schmidt: Today Nielsen is teamwork for a wide variety of clients and I won't go into all of those clients now, but he also collaborates with several educational institutions like the new twist school, the arts like new university Delft university and. 14 00:01:48.720 --> 00:01:49.350 Matthew Schmidt: so on. 15 00:01:49.920 --> 00:02:07.560 Matthew Schmidt: As a trainer he's provided both face to face training across Europe, and also in other areas and online training as well, so with that introduction i'm going to pass the MIC to neil's meals before is yours. 16 00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:08.970 Niels Floor: Thank you so. 17 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:09.480 Much. 18 00:02:10.620 --> 00:02:20.400 Niels Floor: For the wonderful introduction that not much to add there, I have my first slides dedicated to kind of introduce myself, so, as you said, shapers my company. 19 00:02:21.330 --> 00:02:33.570 Niels Floor: Creating a learning experience canvas I did that in 2013 I kind of did it for myself for me and my company to to design better learning experience but it took on a life of its own basically and. 20 00:02:35.100 --> 00:02:44.700 Niels Floor: I made available for free, because people ask for it, and since then it's been downloaded by thousands of people, and it kind of spun off into a. 21 00:02:45.540 --> 00:03:03.840 Niels Floor: LSD Community around the world and me and my team wants to support that Community bit better so we created llc.org, which is a platform for anything learning experience design so feel free to look it up and check it out. 22 00:03:05.640 --> 00:03:07.230 Niels Floor: And as Matthew said. 23 00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:19.590 Niels Floor: My background is in design and in education, I am primarily a designer coming into the field of education, and when I was kind of combining those two. 24 00:03:20.610 --> 00:03:27.840 Niels Floor: worlds as a as a designer in the field of learning, I thought well there's something there that that can really. 25 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:33.240 Niels Floor: be beneficial to the learner when you think about that we learned from what we experience. 26 00:03:33.810 --> 00:03:42.930 Niels Floor: I was already designing experiences, so why don't design experiences people learn from now that was back in 2007 as Matthew said. 27 00:03:43.530 --> 00:03:53.550 Niels Floor: And back then people didn't know and most people didn't really care about this, so it was a long, long journey, up until now, where i've been. 28 00:03:54.450 --> 00:04:08.040 Niels Floor: Applying and developing and promoting learning experience and globally and the journey has brought me to a lot of interesting places and countries met a lot of interesting people and so also going to bring me and. 29 00:04:09.810 --> 00:04:18.960 Niels Floor: To Philadelphia in August August 4 i'll be hosting a master classes and one day master class and. 30 00:04:19.650 --> 00:04:27.000 Niels Floor: You can look at fca org and I believe there's also a method as a flyer is going to share as well, so. 31 00:04:27.420 --> 00:04:39.090 Niels Floor: If you're interested or you know people who are interested feel free to look it up and maybe i'll See you in Philadelphia all right, but before we go to Philadelphia we're going to look at some European perspectives. 32 00:04:40.470 --> 00:04:52.770 Niels Floor: And it's quite funny that I never thought of it that way, but when I talk to Matthew about the kind of work that I do and the overlap between Matthews and my ideas and mine. 33 00:04:54.360 --> 00:04:58.530 Niels Floor: We came to the conclusion that there is an element to my work that is. 34 00:04:59.550 --> 00:05:11.280 Niels Floor: Quite European as opposed to maybe American or Asian or so we're going to look at that today, and so we go to start this journey in Europe, and specifically. 35 00:05:12.600 --> 00:05:13.050 Niels Floor: In. 36 00:05:14.100 --> 00:05:14.730 Niels Floor: Italy. 37 00:05:16.530 --> 00:05:18.810 Niels Floor: So I traveled to Italy. 38 00:05:19.980 --> 00:05:25.500 Niels Floor: Two times and I visited the incredible city or Florence. 39 00:05:26.550 --> 00:05:27.090 Niels Floor: and 40 00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:40.350 Niels Floor: I love arts and that's the perfect place to go to if you're into arts, especially if you're into painting, as I am so I went to the renounce. 41 00:05:40.950 --> 00:05:48.780 Niels Floor: gallery alpha Chi the fixing museum and there's all this incredible Renaissance, are there to be seen. 42 00:05:49.770 --> 00:06:07.710 Niels Floor: I was looking forward to it a lot, but there was one painting that I wasn't really interested in that's really, really famous, and the reason I wasn't interested in in because I had seen so many times in my artists three books it's on posters it's on lunch boxes it's on everywhere. 43 00:06:08.880 --> 00:06:13.950 Niels Floor: And that's this painting the birth of Venus by Sunday robotic chatting. 44 00:06:17.520 --> 00:06:19.470 Niels Floor: So I walked into. 45 00:06:21.030 --> 00:06:26.340 Niels Floor: The room where this painting is on the display I was simply blown away. 46 00:06:27.990 --> 00:06:32.430 Niels Floor: I was expecting very little of it, and I was totally impressed by it. 47 00:06:34.410 --> 00:06:40.470 Niels Floor: And it was a big shock to me because it was the total opposite of all the way, what I was expecting and. 48 00:06:41.760 --> 00:06:50.790 Niels Floor: It made me think about so I knew this painting I disliked it, and now I love it straight away How is that possible. 49 00:06:52.650 --> 00:07:00.030 Niels Floor: Now what Sandra Botticelli already understood is that when you create a painting. 50 00:07:01.650 --> 00:07:03.060 Niels Floor: You want to offer people. 51 00:07:04.770 --> 00:07:05.970 Niels Floor: An experience. 52 00:07:07.320 --> 00:07:11.610 Niels Floor: You want to show them something that's going to really know. 53 00:07:13.170 --> 00:07:22.950 Niels Floor: Inspired him or or make them feel something make them see something, and when you look at the this close up. 54 00:07:23.730 --> 00:07:31.860 Niels Floor: There is a certain graphic quality to do to this painting that that feels very modern and fresh still still today, which was one of the things that really. 55 00:07:32.400 --> 00:07:39.720 Niels Floor: impressed me a fun fact about this painting is that what he said he was the first painter in Florence to paint on canvas. 56 00:07:40.080 --> 00:07:48.600 Niels Floor: Before that everyone was painting on routes and canvas was seen as a cheap material, but it allowed him to create a bigger painting. 57 00:07:49.170 --> 00:08:05.100 Niels Floor: And the size of this paintings, one of the reasons so incredible experience of being there in the city of Florence and seeing this painting for real made such a big difference as opposed to seeing this in my artistry books. 58 00:08:06.960 --> 00:08:16.110 Niels Floor: And even though I knew the painting and knew the facts about the band had to study them, I felt like I hadn't known anything about up until that moment. 59 00:08:17.160 --> 00:08:17.700 Niels Floor: So. 60 00:08:18.900 --> 00:08:37.830 Niels Floor: That made me think about how important it is to have a great experience and authentic experience now in in learning often we of course we can't always go to Italy to see this painting if we need to learn about it, but in learning, we tend to kind of. 61 00:08:39.090 --> 00:08:58.590 Niels Floor: stray from reality and turn things into something maybe a bit superficial like watching an image of painting instead of watching the actual painting, I think there is a lot for me, there was a lot I learned from just seeing this in real life and understanding the power of a great experience. 62 00:08:59.970 --> 00:09:14.820 Niels Floor: So that's why, today, I wanted to start with arts European art in this industry respect to look at the word experience, first because experience is at the core of what I do as a learning experience designer. 63 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:22.350 Niels Floor: What I create is not teaching as necessary, or I don't design a curriculum or I don't. 64 00:09:22.710 --> 00:09:34.620 Niels Floor: design a course specifically I designed the whole experience and all those elements, the teaching aids or or other materials or an APP or a platform, those are elements. 65 00:09:34.980 --> 00:09:43.950 Niels Floor: of that experience but it's not the complete experience and Designing an experience versus designing a course is is a big difference. 66 00:09:45.420 --> 00:09:53.370 Niels Floor: Now, when I talk about experience it's important to look at it from a very broad perspective and i'll explain why that's important in just a moment. 67 00:09:54.330 --> 00:10:07.860 Niels Floor: So the way I define experience is any situation that you encounter that takes a certain amount of time and leave some kind of impression, and when you think about it that's basically anything we go through. 68 00:10:09.300 --> 00:10:27.210 Niels Floor: Now, why is it so important well if you create experiences as a designer you know you're driving forces creativity, so you need creative freedom in order to get the most out of your design, in this case, out of this experience. 69 00:10:28.500 --> 00:10:37.650 Niels Floor: So, by defining experience really brothy you can let go of some of the some of the assumptions, we have about one experience should be like what a learning experience would be like. 70 00:10:38.010 --> 00:10:47.190 Niels Floor: For instance, when I say learning experience, maybe you think about a classroom or maybe think about online education, maybe think about teaching or maybe think about. 71 00:10:48.270 --> 00:11:03.060 Niels Floor: No books or any and those are all preconceived notions assumptions about what the learning experience looks like and I want to be totally free to create whatever works best for the learner and. 72 00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:11.670 Niels Floor: Going back to our that's comparable to an empty canvas where anything is still possible, instead of already having a canvas that's kind of. 73 00:11:12.930 --> 00:11:21.630 Niels Floor: sketched out you kind of own the APP to maybe paint by numbers, so you want to be free to create whatever you want, so this experience. 74 00:11:23.280 --> 00:11:32.400 Niels Floor: is watching design and once again going back to ours ic design as an applied form of art, there are different types of design, of course, but. 75 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:40.920 Niels Floor: Being creative professional, for instance, the way that graphic design isn't applied form of visual arts and. 76 00:11:41.790 --> 00:11:57.600 Niels Floor: For me, art is a huge source of inspiration as a designer there are many lessons to be learned there so using your creative creativity or design skills to design experiences and those experiences. 77 00:11:58.680 --> 00:12:13.710 Niels Floor: have a clear goal, which is learning so it's not educational experience design or teaching experience design, the focus is always on the learner process of learning the experience they have and what they get out of this experience. 78 00:12:14.790 --> 00:12:15.750 Niels Floor: So, in a way. 79 00:12:17.250 --> 00:12:23.880 Niels Floor: Learning experiences it explains itself and it's an experience you design intended for learning. 80 00:12:25.650 --> 00:12:30.870 Niels Floor: there's more to it, because this experience as specific qualities. 81 00:12:32.670 --> 00:12:36.480 Niels Floor: First of all, is a human experience and that implies a lot. 82 00:12:39.570 --> 00:12:51.810 Niels Floor: Traditionally, learning can be seen as you know, a student being an empty vessel and you for knowledge into this empty vessel or other expertise. 83 00:12:53.910 --> 00:13:12.720 Niels Floor: I try to have a more holistic approach, because you are designing for real people and real people are not just instead of brains people have also have emotions and they are a social and interact with each other, so when you design a learning experience and you've been focused on people. 84 00:13:14.850 --> 00:13:25.740 Niels Floor: You think about not just what they're going to learn from this experience with also how this experience is going to make them feel and how these fans are going to influence what they learn and what they can and can't achieve. 85 00:13:26.910 --> 00:13:36.720 Niels Floor: And also you think about how are people going to interact with each other, learning is often and most preferably a social process something where people interact with each other. 86 00:13:37.980 --> 00:13:39.690 Niels Floor: And so. 87 00:13:41.610 --> 00:13:58.740 Niels Floor: If you want to achieve that you need to apply human centered design and human centered design is really about putting people at the heart of your design process and, at the heart of your design, I always say you want to make the people to start off your experience. 88 00:14:00.510 --> 00:14:04.560 Niels Floor: So human centered design is an important part of designing learning experiences. 89 00:14:05.640 --> 00:14:16.440 Niels Floor: But these experiences, they also are goal oriented and goal oriented design as a as a term that comes from interaction design. 90 00:14:16.950 --> 00:14:40.380 Niels Floor: For you think about what kind of goals, do I want to achieve or do I does a user in the traditional one to achieve and what can I do to enable this person to achieve that goal, what kind of choices is you're going to make what kind of support, do you get and so using those principles. 91 00:14:41.610 --> 00:14:50.850 Niels Floor: Of goal oriented design a human centered design you're able to design experiences people learn from in a human centered and goal oriented way. 92 00:14:51.930 --> 00:14:53.010 Niels Floor: And that's where. 93 00:14:54.330 --> 00:15:00.930 Niels Floor: My definition of learning experience design comes in, this is what I came up with a. 94 00:15:01.500 --> 00:15:12.540 Niels Floor: couple of years ago, the learning experience is the process of creating learning experiences that enable the learner to achieve the desired learning outcome in a human centered and goal oriented way. 95 00:15:13.140 --> 00:15:20.010 Niels Floor: And this is the only slide i'm going to read out loud because almost all my slides are just illustrations. 96 00:15:22.800 --> 00:15:28.590 Niels Floor: But when people see this definition, there are still a lot of room for interpretation and. 97 00:15:30.600 --> 00:15:45.660 Niels Floor: it's interesting that your learning experience is appealing to many people from different types of backgrounds and we'll talk a bit more about that in a moment, but that's why I want to add another layer to this and highlight a couple of words so. 98 00:15:48.030 --> 00:15:59.130 Niels Floor: Creating is highlighted because it's a creative process and i'm going to look at their process in a moment, but a creative process is. 99 00:16:00.570 --> 00:16:09.090 Niels Floor: Different, for instance, and a scientific process it doesn't mean that learning experience it doesn't have any element of science in i'll get back to that later as well. 100 00:16:09.750 --> 00:16:19.110 Niels Floor: But as I said, as an applied form of art creative professionals have a creative process to create things this love creation there. 101 00:16:19.680 --> 00:16:34.080 Niels Floor: So that's that's the first one, second one enable so it's not about teaching someone it's about enabling someone to achieve a certain outcome and. 102 00:16:35.070 --> 00:16:47.040 Niels Floor: I see for me design has always been something discipline, it serves other people it's not about you, as a designer it's about who these people are and how you can best support them. 103 00:16:47.880 --> 00:16:54.900 Niels Floor: Whether it's when you create a graphic design that something that is appealing to them and it's clear that communicates a clear message. 104 00:16:56.280 --> 00:17:04.440 Niels Floor: or when it's a learning experience that you create something that is that is enabling and empowering to the learner. 105 00:17:06.120 --> 00:17:11.040 Niels Floor: And I talked about human centered and goal oriented those are both design. 106 00:17:12.060 --> 00:17:21.000 Niels Floor: Principles and applying those really makes a big difference in how you create a learning experience. 107 00:17:22.290 --> 00:17:23.310 Niels Floor: By the way, if people have. 108 00:17:24.360 --> 00:17:25.680 Niels Floor: questions. 109 00:17:28.020 --> 00:17:29.550 Niels Floor: I see Jamie says something. 110 00:17:30.930 --> 00:17:38.190 Niels Floor: like this definition lends itself towards compatibility with a range of learning theories, such as yourself Dieter that's a great point Jamie. 111 00:17:38.670 --> 00:17:51.030 Niels Floor: So learning experience in itself is not a a learning theory, in fact, the most, the only learning theory that's really kind of standards linked to this is experiential learning. 112 00:17:51.480 --> 00:18:03.210 Niels Floor: But then not determined not defined is learning by doing but really as the science of how we learn from what we experience so that's that's linked to learning experience and but. 113 00:18:03.660 --> 00:18:21.690 Niels Floor: I want designers or any learning experience either instructional design for any educational expert or learning and development professionals to be able to pick the best learning theory or strategy within their design that's going to work so it's not going to. 114 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:31.290 Niels Floor: determine the the learning theory, you need to apply as a learning experience designer so I love the fact that you pointed out, James thanks for that. 115 00:18:33.060 --> 00:18:35.580 Niels Floor: Now, to make it a bit clearer. 116 00:18:36.810 --> 00:18:43.470 Niels Floor: We have these four quadrants the design side the learning side, and there are a lot of fields to have kind of. 117 00:18:44.850 --> 00:18:54.150 Niels Floor: been intertwined into what what learning experience design is and has become and waste also still developing. 118 00:18:54.510 --> 00:19:03.240 Niels Floor: So on the design side we have goal oriented design and we have human oriented design for instance games are very goal oriented where. 119 00:19:03.750 --> 00:19:20.910 Niels Floor: interaction dying for human oriented you think about psychology of user what kind of choices they make our sport them, so I just talked about the Info oriented design so there's a lot of design disciplines and there's elements of all of this that's linked to. 120 00:19:22.140 --> 00:19:27.600 Niels Floor: To learning experience design now about the European perspective it's. 121 00:19:28.890 --> 00:19:33.720 Niels Floor: The field experiences is quite common your, especially in Scandinavia. 122 00:19:34.740 --> 00:19:44.550 Niels Floor: And I met in Scandinavia, but it's nearby and that's an interesting field that's that's quite linked quite strongly to learning experiences I. 123 00:19:44.940 --> 00:19:58.260 Niels Floor: know people who are user creativity to to come up with these incredible experiences that are often highly enjoyable and can be very transformational so there's low of. 124 00:19:59.790 --> 00:20:07.080 Niels Floor: Originally, when I was getting into learning experiences on I was mostly linked to other European experience designers. 125 00:20:10.770 --> 00:20:21.840 Niels Floor: On the other hand, on the other side, this the learning side, so you have the human side of learning the scientific data sciences neuroscience psychology experiential learning as I just pointed out. 126 00:20:23.100 --> 00:20:26.220 Niels Floor: And then there's the application of. 127 00:20:27.330 --> 00:20:40.440 Niels Floor: of learning goal oriented training teaching and instructional design, which is, of course, it can also be more scientific but it's way to take those scientific insights and you apply them to. 128 00:20:41.850 --> 00:20:43.230 Niels Floor: situation where people learn. 129 00:20:44.280 --> 00:20:51.510 Niels Floor: Now, as a learning experience I got more attention and start to spread across the US as well. 130 00:20:54.240 --> 00:21:00.330 Niels Floor: As first of all time became more part of the old debate, so what is the what is instructional design, how do they compare. 131 00:21:02.610 --> 00:21:03.210 Niels Floor: and 132 00:21:04.890 --> 00:21:13.260 Niels Floor: In my opinion, it's part of the mix but it's not the origin, the sole origin of learning experience design. 133 00:21:13.740 --> 00:21:20.700 Niels Floor: I have no background in instructional design, but i've worked with many instructional designers and i've trained, many of them and they're. 134 00:21:21.060 --> 00:21:30.630 Niels Floor: quite some differences in the approach and methodologies, but of course the goals are more or less identical it's just a different approach to get there. 135 00:21:31.140 --> 00:21:44.550 Niels Floor: I love to learn from instructional designers to improve my learning experiences, and I think the you know the other way around, is also very well possible okay so way he designed his experience a learning experience. 136 00:21:45.780 --> 00:21:55.980 Niels Floor: Very quickly, this is how I work, in essence, and this is the way basically any creative professional works if a question, what do I want to achieve what what do I want to solve. 137 00:21:56.760 --> 00:22:13.830 Niels Floor: that's why you need to do research you do use research or learner research you research, the the outcome that you're trying to achieve the objective you're setting I want you to know what you want to achieve and those with with the learner who design you IDA to conceptualize or visualize. 138 00:22:14.940 --> 00:22:26.430 Niels Floor: And then it's time to build a prototype you test your prototype you learn from it, and this is for the cycle know happens, a couple of times until your design is ready to launch. 139 00:22:28.530 --> 00:22:28.980 Niels Floor: Now. 140 00:22:31.170 --> 00:22:34.650 Niels Floor: This is, this is the way I work, and I think. 141 00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:43.440 Niels Floor: it's it's it's a very fun way to work but it's also not the most predictable way to work so. 142 00:22:44.280 --> 00:22:52.770 Niels Floor: The design can be a bit unpredictable and sometimes messy so for the clients that I work with this is sometimes a challenge, where they would prefer to have. 143 00:22:53.040 --> 00:23:01.560 Niels Floor: Everything clear from the beginning, but as I said, I started with an empty canvas anything is possible, so any kind of design is possible, but that's something to keep in mind. 144 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:18.030 Niels Floor: Right So what do I design them all to take yeah so that's 15 minutes so wants to take a moment to talk about a project we did a number of years ago where's the debate a little bit of history in this as well, for you and small history lesson. 145 00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:31.920 Niels Floor: Which is about when the Dutch went from Amsterdam and they set foot at in Manhattan and they found a new Amsterdam, which later became New York. 146 00:23:33.600 --> 00:23:36.090 Niels Floor: And that was 400 years ago. 147 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:56.550 Niels Floor: A few years ago with that was four years ago and it was celebrated and I was asked to as a learning experience i'm here to create with a multidisciplinary team a learning experience for students in Amsterdam and New York learning simultaneously about their shared history. 148 00:23:58.140 --> 00:24:06.090 Niels Floor: And i've referred to arts a couple of times already for inspiration and we use literature as the. 149 00:24:07.260 --> 00:24:13.350 Niels Floor: inspiration for this project, the author Russell shorter wrote a book the island at the Center of the world. 150 00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:24.120 Niels Floor: about how the about life of Dutch people the life of Dutch people also Germans Italian and Spanish but found a new Amsterdam living there. 151 00:24:24.600 --> 00:24:36.900 Niels Floor: Together with the native Americans and that part of history and we wanted to make that come alive, so one of the things that was really important in. 152 00:24:37.980 --> 00:24:49.020 Niels Floor: Why new Amsterdam was founded was for trade, so we decided to develop a trading game, as the let's say the main part of this experience. 153 00:24:50.130 --> 00:25:05.010 Niels Floor: So we took actual physical places and answer them and in La new Amsterdam or New York where students would have to go and play this trading game and kind of. 154 00:25:06.300 --> 00:25:16.200 Niels Floor: Experience for themselves how things worked back then, and as they played this game they would get all these messages and about. 155 00:25:17.310 --> 00:25:18.870 Niels Floor: fictional but realistic. 156 00:25:20.040 --> 00:25:35.070 Niels Floor: News at the time, about how beaver for was out of fashion in Paris so stock was down and actually stock market was an important part of this this experience and the stock market was actually a. 157 00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:38.970 Niels Floor: i'll get to that question in a moment. 158 00:25:40.500 --> 00:25:46.710 Niels Floor: stock market what industry invention Actually, I learned that Ben I didn't know that, but so. 159 00:25:48.990 --> 00:25:55.920 Niels Floor: We want to make this period come alive in a fun way and in a realistic way so that's what we did. 160 00:25:56.760 --> 00:26:08.370 Niels Floor: And they add some in class in the classroom the atom activities to prepare them for this, they have some history lessons for the Dutch students from English lessons because they. 161 00:26:08.760 --> 00:26:21.630 Niels Floor: communicate with the students in New York, as well, but they would have to physically get out to different places trade bargain and the fun thing was that this was designed for. 162 00:26:22.710 --> 00:26:35.370 Niels Floor: different levels of secondary education from actually from relatively I would say, low level but towards more practical and the more the higher theoretical level and. 163 00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:49.200 Niels Floor: You could use different strategies so maybe would run faster, you would be better negotiator, you would you would have a better timing you so anyone could win this game, so it was a lot of fun to work. 164 00:26:50.370 --> 00:27:02.610 Niels Floor: Now you can imagine, looking at this cycle that I just showed that we had to go through several iterations to finally come up with this kind of design, because it had never been done. 165 00:27:03.060 --> 00:27:20.280 Niels Floor: And you don't know exactly how it's going to work, so we did a lot of designing testing your prototyping getting back to the drawing board and that was really great fun now a summit said, do you include learners the early stages of the design as well. 166 00:27:21.630 --> 00:27:29.430 Niels Floor: As much as I can, and what I mean by that is ideally you have learners in every step of the process. 167 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:35.520 Niels Floor: have them involved in every step of the process, there are great ways to do for your research, of course. 168 00:27:36.330 --> 00:27:56.640 Niels Floor: to determine we all, what kind of question you're trying to answer to really know what you're aiming for, and to have them go create designs to have them test your designs all sorts of possibilities often reality is that you, you don't always have learners. 169 00:27:57.780 --> 00:28:08.160 Niels Floor: available to you at every step of the process i've talked to people i've talked to an instructional designer who said well my company doesn't, allow me to speak with. 170 00:28:08.760 --> 00:28:23.580 Niels Floor: learners because their clients so sometimes people aren't even allowed to to to interact with learners I want to try and interact with them as much as possible, so that's that's a great question, thank you for asking that. 171 00:28:25.800 --> 00:28:26.310 Niels Floor: yeah. 172 00:28:27.840 --> 00:28:31.020 Niels Floor: So I talking really fast. 173 00:28:32.070 --> 00:28:49.290 Niels Floor: um so as a learning experiences I have what kind of things that you have to deal with it, this year the things you have to be good at, in my opinion, so I made this this this station to to kind of illustrate that no pun intended. 174 00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:58.530 Niels Floor: So i'm going to start with a lining perspectives this projects for the islands project thanks Matthew. 175 00:29:02.310 --> 00:29:26.160 Niels Floor: We had a we had like it people we had producers, we had the the writer of the book who's also a historian, we had another historian, we had was also party game designer, I think, then we had different visual designers all sorts of people and. 176 00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:37.110 Niels Floor: All those different stakeholders have different perspectives and different needs and wants and desires, we have students, of course, we have the teachers all and. 177 00:29:38.100 --> 00:29:53.070 Niels Floor: One of the tricky things what to get all those perspectives align and make sure that the, the end result, the actual experience with something that they all were excited about that works that they they felt like it was the right design, there was a great challenge and. 178 00:29:54.540 --> 00:29:55.830 Niels Floor: let's see pulling says. 179 00:29:57.060 --> 00:30:06.060 Niels Floor: Since you sometimes don't have access to interact with learners can you share how you do your research in order to analyze the learners what they need that's a great question. 180 00:30:08.970 --> 00:30:09.480 Niels Floor: yeah. 181 00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:16.020 Niels Floor: So you want to get as close to learn as as possible, so sometimes. 182 00:30:17.550 --> 00:30:27.600 Niels Floor: If you can find people from a similar audience or target group, you can already learn from them and. 183 00:30:28.800 --> 00:30:34.020 Niels Floor: Then there's just did desktop research, if you know the age group for the kind of. 184 00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:44.430 Niels Floor: Demographics about learner, then you can you know, there are a lot of resources out there that can help you to get a better picture. 185 00:30:47.190 --> 00:30:52.260 Niels Floor: If you really don't have any access to learners you just you really need to. 186 00:30:54.030 --> 00:31:02.160 Niels Floor: Trust sources, who talk about or explain things about that that group of people, or you can talk to you know, often. 187 00:31:02.550 --> 00:31:16.920 Niels Floor: Our clients have a know a lot about their learners and maybe you i'm going over for company and its employees and I can't get to these employees, I can still talk, talk to the client who knows his employees or employees. 188 00:31:17.700 --> 00:31:24.270 Niels Floor: So if it's not directly find an indirect way to to talk to them, and if there's really no. 189 00:31:25.320 --> 00:31:34.320 Niels Floor: yeah if you just have to go on it anything you can find outside of direct interaction with it with the learner and then that's just reality and that's when. 190 00:31:36.690 --> 00:31:39.780 Niels Floor: A good design process really helps to. 191 00:31:40.830 --> 00:31:46.170 Niels Floor: To try and make it as soon as possible, but it's hard you do need that interaction with the learner. 192 00:31:47.370 --> 00:31:50.490 Niels Floor: Possibly so that's a good question but yeah. 193 00:31:54.210 --> 00:31:56.340 Niels Floor: yeah I have used social media so. 194 00:31:57.930 --> 00:32:07.200 Niels Floor: Online if not ethnography sorry difficult work is an interesting design met a research design research method. 195 00:32:08.820 --> 00:32:10.860 Niels Floor: Where you go into a. 196 00:32:12.180 --> 00:32:24.240 Niels Floor: For instance, in into a linkedin group or Facebook group and you interact with with learners and i've done that from time to time i'm don't use social media a lot myself. 197 00:32:25.470 --> 00:32:27.390 Niels Floor: But for those reasons I will. 198 00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:37.800 Niels Floor: read it, I I know about rated by i've never used it so that's that's a that's a good tip I am like I said i'm not very. 199 00:32:39.300 --> 00:32:51.900 Niels Floor: I don't know that much about social media, but if that's the way to get closer to people and sometimes I just asked my network does anyone knows someone in this age group oreo and I tried to reach people. 200 00:32:52.350 --> 00:33:00.450 Niels Floor: who are going to fit that that description as well, so yeah but i'm not ready to use her yet, but I will check it out. 201 00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:09.720 Niels Floor: A certain lighting perspectives, they need to be original you know we talked about art a lot already or I talked about art a lot. 202 00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:19.020 Niels Floor: And the the one of the strength of an artist, is that you have an original artwork and I want to create original design things that haven't been done before, because. 203 00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:29.970 Niels Floor: What are the chances that the best possible solution for a specific situation and certain learner the certain goals already exists now, you always need to make it as as as. 204 00:33:30.900 --> 00:33:40.170 Niels Floor: original as possible, you need great ideas for that, and this for originality comes in, you also need to be able to both analyze and create and know. 205 00:33:41.970 --> 00:33:53.130 Niels Floor: an alternate between those, so it is a creative discipline, but you also need to be analytical of course now if you don't if you're being analytical you will miss out on your research. 206 00:33:56.880 --> 00:34:14.760 Niels Floor: And so that I talk about creative freedom that gives me and to any designer give them give them wings and so, if you can imagine if you try to make it work, and you know you care for the learner you empathize with the learner it's always a combination of kind of. 207 00:34:16.200 --> 00:34:30.240 Niels Floor: hard facts about learner and getting to know them and kind of being able to walk in their shoes and understand a little bit about how they feel about things, and what i've learned from many designers I created is that if you. 208 00:34:31.620 --> 00:34:43.140 Niels Floor: care for the learner and you design with care, they will feel cared for, so they feel your intention in the design that you create that's what i've experienced. 209 00:34:44.370 --> 00:34:44.940 Niels Floor: and 210 00:34:47.130 --> 00:34:47.730 Niels Floor: Finally. 211 00:34:48.930 --> 00:34:56.100 Niels Floor: I include the use science, I am a scientist and then i'm sure there are scientists are super creative as well, but. 212 00:34:57.900 --> 00:35:14.370 Niels Floor: I want to I often work with scientists to make sure that what I create is based on a strong foundation knowledge just on design research, but also on scientific research, I have a very short example i'm going to share yeah and then we're going to go into some more discussion. 213 00:35:16.050 --> 00:35:16.830 Niels Floor: And that's. 214 00:35:18.090 --> 00:35:29.820 Niels Floor: about how our memory works in a very basic level, we all know about how do we have a sensory memory census that sensory information for working memory, but that's already. 215 00:35:30.420 --> 00:35:34.500 Niels Floor: Something where it's not just a cognitive process is also an emotional process. 216 00:35:35.010 --> 00:35:54.630 Niels Floor: And of course you can discuss that emotion is part of the cognitive process, but I separate them because I want to make the point that you know emotion influences how we learn how we feel how we experience, so our census and the signal to our working memory, Francis was an apple. 217 00:35:55.920 --> 00:35:59.250 Niels Floor: Now, if you want to learn the word apple in a different language. 218 00:36:00.450 --> 00:36:03.750 Niels Floor: You can show a picture of self an apple and say, this is an apple. 219 00:36:04.980 --> 00:36:13.830 Niels Floor: But that would only use the years and the eyes, if you would give someone an apple and say, this is an apple and they will taste it. 220 00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:17.700 Niels Floor: They will use all their senses and I. 221 00:36:19.230 --> 00:36:34.470 Niels Floor: I always like to say that more sentence makes more sense when you're trying to when you provide someone with an experience so, because these are separate signals in our sensory memory and they need to be combined, the best way to combine them to make a strong. 222 00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:37.500 Niels Floor: memory is by. 223 00:36:38.700 --> 00:36:47.790 Niels Floor: activating all senses so maybe your long term memory, as you learn is where do you think about the first time you saw an apple and an apple tree. 224 00:36:48.240 --> 00:36:54.930 Niels Floor: And that memory may be very phone the by the wonderful day maybe you out with her grandparents whatever. 225 00:36:55.830 --> 00:37:10.620 Niels Floor: But that's how you make a memory stick more senses makes more sense, you have these emotional connections, you have these physical connections as cognitive connections to make great memories right so. 226 00:37:14.310 --> 00:37:18.750 Niels Floor: i'm going to treat myself with SIP of water in just a moment, if you want to. 227 00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:24.600 Niels Floor: Thank you all, if you want to look up some stuff i'm doing shape or so NL we're Dutch. 228 00:37:25.650 --> 00:37:34.380 Niels Floor: Alex canvas.com and Alex org for all your learning experience I needs to thank you all so much I would love to. 229 00:37:35.700 --> 00:37:41.010 Niels Floor: see your faces and to have a chat with you because I have been some great questions already. 230 00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:44.940 Niels Floor: Thank you. 231 00:37:48.600 --> 00:37:49.620 Niels Floor: I appreciate that. 232 00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:58.620 Niels Floor: So if you get, if you like, to turn on your camera and your microphone i'd be happy to hear your voices and. 233 00:37:58.650 --> 00:38:04.260 Niels Floor: any questions you have, or maybe tips we're here to learn from each other. 234 00:38:10.110 --> 00:38:11.310 Niels Floor: it's a bit quiet. 235 00:38:14.520 --> 00:38:17.370 Niels Floor: Well, I have a question for you and you can react to that maybe. 236 00:38:21.990 --> 00:38:30.390 Niels Floor: i'm just curious if this felt like in any way like different slash European perspective to what you might have expected. 237 00:38:31.410 --> 00:38:35.250 Niels Floor: Or maybe what your your your your concept of. 238 00:38:36.330 --> 00:38:39.270 Niels Floor: How, you would conceive learning experiences on. 239 00:38:42.030 --> 00:38:43.200 Niels Floor: Our European Mr. 240 00:38:46.920 --> 00:38:50.370 Niels Floor: I like to think that i'm like a like a global citizen. 241 00:38:51.990 --> 00:38:54.870 Niels Floor: But it turns out i'm quite quite European off trouble. 242 00:38:56.010 --> 00:38:57.840 Matthew Schmidt: i'll Japan neil's. 243 00:38:58.950 --> 00:39:05.850 Matthew Schmidt: From my perspective of what you presented today is much different than. 244 00:39:07.590 --> 00:39:15.000 Matthew Schmidt: Some of the perspective that we have in the states on traditional instructional design Now I know we're talking about learning experience design. 245 00:39:15.450 --> 00:39:34.770 Matthew Schmidt: But the tct membership is largely drawn from instructional design circles and traditional learning design circles that you started from art and aesthetics, that is not typically the perspective that leads into conversations about instructional design. 246 00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:45.210 Matthew Schmidt: So that's one of the first things that struck me was that you're thinking about aesthetics, this is beginning to get some prominence in the States and. 247 00:39:46.470 --> 00:40:02.160 Matthew Schmidt: There are some people who are thinking more about beauty and learning design and the importance of beauty and aesthetics, but if you want to know how much literature is writing about it it's really just kind of a handful of studies or or thought pieces. 248 00:40:02.190 --> 00:40:02.850 If you will. 249 00:40:04.170 --> 00:40:12.510 Matthew Schmidt: That was a piece that was resonant with me and the other pieces really kind of centered around the centrality of the learner in your process. 250 00:40:14.220 --> 00:40:17.730 Matthew Schmidt: And it's not just designing for the learner but designing with. 251 00:40:17.790 --> 00:40:27.540 Matthew Schmidt: The learner and again, those are things that are beginning to kind of emerge in the States, but I think have. 252 00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:29.280 Matthew Schmidt: been prominent in Europe. 253 00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:34.800 Matthew Schmidt: For much longer so that's just my thoughts, but i'll pass the MIC to someone else you might want to comment. 254 00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:56.820 Niels Floor: And by the way, the reason we chose to call this European perspective on learning experience and he said Matthew and I, we talked about bauhaus and for anyone who doesn't know about us was a kind of a you know what what it was like a. 255 00:40:59.490 --> 00:41:07.860 Niels Floor: arts a piece of art history where it wasn't just about what you saw but really about architecture about the interior about. 256 00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:25.410 Niels Floor: More conceptual approach to how art is the foundation for a lot of different applications and that's something that I never thought of necessarily as European, but it is quite European, of course, is German but that's something that's. 257 00:41:27.660 --> 00:41:30.420 Niels Floor: The term goosebumps comes back like a. 258 00:41:33.090 --> 00:41:41.340 Niels Floor: Complete piece of art is something that's quite common in also in the Netherlands, I have a short story about. 259 00:41:42.150 --> 00:41:52.260 Niels Floor: project I did when I got my master's degree in interaction design, we did a project on the stock exchange, in Amsterdam, and this is was built by. 260 00:41:52.980 --> 00:42:08.100 Niels Floor: A famous Dutch architect bear laughing and one of the things he did was he for certain spaces, there was a certain function and instead of saying i'm going to create a functional room. 261 00:42:08.580 --> 00:42:25.080 Niels Floor: He said first i'm going to ask a poet to write a poem for this space as inspiration, based on what it's going to need to be facilitating and then, once a poem is done i'm going to give all these different artists and craftsmen. 262 00:42:27.060 --> 00:42:43.470 Niels Floor: The opportunity to design something inspired by the poem they created like murals and and and all kinds of wood carvings and then the whole room came together as a gums comes back as a complete piece of art, it was functional now that was. 263 00:42:45.810 --> 00:43:00.150 Niels Floor: That might sound weird but it's quite it's a maybe it's also be European, I don't know, but the I thought it was really inspiring to see how you could take something as poetry, as the foundation for something that might sound rather technical. 264 00:43:04.740 --> 00:43:10.050 Niels Floor: So maybe by now you're like What else do what should I talk about this is crazy stuff man. 265 00:43:11.670 --> 00:43:13.830 Matthew Schmidt: We do have a couple of questions in the chat. 266 00:43:13.890 --> 00:43:14.970 Niels Floor: earlier questions here. 267 00:43:15.210 --> 00:43:25.410 Matthew Schmidt: So one is coming from tammy Quang, you mentioned the importance of emotion, do you intentionally designed for emotion if so. 268 00:43:25.890 --> 00:43:29.910 Matthew Schmidt: how to do it and how does it fit into the four. 269 00:43:30.690 --> 00:43:32.400 Matthew Schmidt: quadrant diagram you showed. 270 00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:37.110 Niels Floor: All right, so it's fitting the diagram. 271 00:43:37.170 --> 00:43:52.380 Niels Floor: And in way talk about the more human centered or human focused design disciplines those care about how people feel and how the future will impact what you create. 272 00:43:53.190 --> 00:44:01.230 Niels Floor: And so I do two things, basically, I think about why don't just think about, but I analyze. 273 00:44:01.950 --> 00:44:16.050 Niels Floor: And I researched the kind of emotions that come into play when people are going to enter the experience that I design and I think about what kind of emotions an activity or something's going to evoke. 274 00:44:16.950 --> 00:44:28.080 Niels Floor: that's going to be part of this experience, and second, I think about what would I like to see what kind of experience what kind of emotion, would I like to see in my design. 275 00:44:29.040 --> 00:44:34.620 Niels Floor: And why that might might sound predictable, if you want everybody to be happy and joyful. 276 00:44:35.040 --> 00:44:41.580 Niels Floor: and learning is, by definition, challenging because you're doing something you haven't been haven't done before you're doing something new. 277 00:44:42.090 --> 00:44:52.740 Niels Floor: So it can be painful it can there can also be negative emotion so i'm not afraid of negative emotions, but I want to treat those respectfully so let me give you a small example. 278 00:44:54.150 --> 00:44:57.540 Niels Floor: I while me and my team are designing. 279 00:44:58.920 --> 00:45:07.650 Niels Floor: have been designing quite a few E learning module recently, something we traditionally never really did because it's can be a bit limiting for the way that we work. 280 00:45:08.370 --> 00:45:20.850 Niels Floor: And we, we are working for this financial institution and they and we learn from our research that the people work there, they have this we were designed is mandatory training that people. 281 00:45:21.240 --> 00:45:33.690 Niels Floor: didn't really like know the subject didn't really appeal to them having to do this, E learning module based on previous modules they were like i'm not looking forward to this so basically you're already. 282 00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:35.310 Niels Floor: You know. 283 00:45:36.330 --> 00:45:37.500 Niels Floor: One nil behind. 284 00:45:39.270 --> 00:45:47.130 Niels Floor: And, but you can say, well, I don't care about how they feel when they see this module is going to make a knife Michael but. 285 00:45:47.640 --> 00:45:54.720 Niels Floor: By thinking about that they're coming into this with a negative mindset I don't want to do this, you need to surprise them. 286 00:45:55.320 --> 00:46:05.430 Niels Floor: You need to show them something that they're like wait a minute this isn't standard E learning this isn't what I was expecting and that's the first step so they're like Okay, this is different. 287 00:46:06.750 --> 00:46:14.580 Niels Floor: And then, as they proceed they discover that they are going to have a very different experience from what they were expecting. 288 00:46:15.630 --> 00:46:19.830 Niels Floor: And then that kind of dead hesitation or that negativity kind of. 289 00:46:22.680 --> 00:46:26.160 Niels Floor: changes into curiosity, rather like wait a minute. 290 00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:37.200 Niels Floor: I want to know more about this, and part of that is because we find ways to make even the most boring subject exciting, you know that's one of the things that I love to do. 291 00:46:38.550 --> 00:46:45.060 Niels Floor: And it's also you know when we look at the feedback when the whole thing was done, then people were taking this course. 292 00:46:45.810 --> 00:47:01.260 Niels Floor: Many people refer to it that they were surprised, and you know, in a in a in a good way, and this was much better than I had expected so that's how you can kind of deal with those emotions and I see that summit has his hand raised. 293 00:47:03.150 --> 00:47:15.090 Samet Baydar: yeah thinking meals for the presentation also so from your explanation, the like upon tami's question can we say, like other than the learning objective. 294 00:47:15.810 --> 00:47:34.740 Samet Baydar: For the design see you somehow either you write it down or not, but you still have some emotional objective in your brain that you want them to feel either during the tree or at the end of the training if they you may desire to see. 295 00:47:34.980 --> 00:47:37.800 Samet Baydar: They should feel confident, or like that's a more. 296 00:47:39.540 --> 00:47:42.150 Samet Baydar: Like curious, as you mentioned, can you say that. 297 00:47:43.170 --> 00:47:47.340 Niels Floor: yeah so the way I formulate a learning outcome. 298 00:47:47.640 --> 00:47:57.120 Niels Floor: Always includes emotional words as well, so I don't just say I am able to the I have learned that the did. 299 00:47:57.570 --> 00:48:06.570 Niels Floor: I those are to me, those are learning objectives and the outcome is really about how someone has changed, how it made them feel differently, how they see things differently. 300 00:48:07.170 --> 00:48:15.240 Niels Floor: So yeah, that is, that is part of it and but it's always you know interacting with each other, because you can't just say, well, these are let's say the learning objectives. 301 00:48:15.330 --> 00:48:23.070 Niels Floor: And these are the emotional objectives and they're separate layers there always know that they're part of the of the same experience, so you. 302 00:48:24.930 --> 00:48:37.920 Niels Floor: it's yeah you it's like a bit of a puzzle to to kind of put all the pieces in in the right place there, but that's that's a great remark Thank you um let's see yeah. 303 00:48:39.450 --> 00:48:45.360 Niels Floor: And then somebody says just many instructional designers something different, so if education. 304 00:48:48.660 --> 00:48:53.070 Niels Floor: clothing deck sound design as informed my work in conjunction. 305 00:48:54.210 --> 00:48:55.830 Niels Floor: that's great is. 306 00:48:57.780 --> 00:49:11.130 Niels Floor: There are, so there are so many places to find inspiration and I look at other designers I look at artists I look at scientists I look at musicians and there's. 307 00:49:13.380 --> 00:49:21.240 Niels Floor: One there's It is this British fashion designer Paul Smith and I saw a documentary on his work and. 308 00:49:22.410 --> 00:49:32.970 Niels Floor: He is he is a bit rebellious in a way, but still, you know it's it's quite pricey fashion, but he walks around with his camera all the time and his notebook. 309 00:49:34.050 --> 00:49:53.940 Niels Floor: And he sees inspiration everywhere, you can hear it in conversations you can see it in signing signs or posters, you can see it in people's clothing and that's where that's what he uses and as as kind of feeding grounds for his new collection, this is designing. 310 00:49:55.500 --> 00:49:58.410 Niels Floor: So did you raise your hand again summit, or is it still raised. 311 00:50:00.450 --> 00:50:00.660 Niels Floor: Though. 312 00:50:05.130 --> 00:50:10.440 Niels Floor: Oh follow up question you have suggestions on how to collect data and analyze learns emotions. 313 00:50:15.450 --> 00:50:33.210 Niels Floor: I actually did a project once where we designed, it was a project for a Dutch university where they wanted to study emotions during an event so i'll people in different. 314 00:50:35.070 --> 00:50:52.230 Niels Floor: So there was a festival and does a place where you are at a certain point of time influence how you feel your, how can you kind of read these emotions may need to prevent riots or anything so I did was placed about and we designed an actual APP. 315 00:50:53.310 --> 00:50:56.820 Niels Floor: Where people could register their emotions So yes, you can. 316 00:50:58.260 --> 00:51:13.650 Niels Floor: You can collect data on that if you want to do it really well, then you really need to use like specialized Apps and I honestly haven't used that I get most of my input from from either interviews with learners or from. 317 00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:25.770 Niels Floor: contextual observation so going to the place where people are seeing what they do and seeing how things, make them feel what frustrates them what gives them joy stuff like that. 318 00:51:27.750 --> 00:51:31.530 Niels Floor: And Matthew also essence nice comments on there. 319 00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:36.450 Niels Floor: So we got four minutes left, what can I do for you. 320 00:51:39.210 --> 00:51:41.670 Rui "Tammy" Huang: Already I just got posted another question. 321 00:51:44.370 --> 00:51:46.290 Niels Floor: posting a question okay. 322 00:51:48.540 --> 00:52:03.690 Niels Floor: When you do design and collect feedback from learners, how do you separate their personal preferences and improvement needs yeah so this part of the aligning perspectives, you know, because a learner might say, well. 323 00:52:04.770 --> 00:52:14.790 Niels Floor: I want this or I need this or I enjoyed this and maybe like an expert or teacher might say, well, you need this and you need this in this. 324 00:52:17.070 --> 00:52:18.450 Niels Floor: And that's where I tried to. 325 00:52:18.840 --> 00:52:22.950 Niels Floor: try to find a balance between what what really works. 326 00:52:22.950 --> 00:52:30.000 Niels Floor: For the learner but needs to be in there, but sometimes I have discussion with with like subject matter, experts and say well. 327 00:52:30.720 --> 00:52:41.010 Niels Floor: I know this is important for you, but this really doesn't mean anything to the learner doesn't need to be in there and they're like well, maybe not maybe it's a bit too specialist or so that's something. 328 00:52:42.570 --> 00:52:43.140 Niels Floor: that's. 329 00:52:44.400 --> 00:53:01.680 Niels Floor: A discussion between me the experts learner clients all cycles to see okay So what can we agree upon and, as I said, you know, making boring stuff exciting is a fun challenge, so if. 330 00:53:02.730 --> 00:53:11.430 Niels Floor: If the learner says i'm really interested in that topic and and after 30 minutes you're like this is such a cool topic, then you know you can use it to your advantage. 331 00:53:13.890 --> 00:53:15.210 Niels Floor: So thanks for that question. 332 00:53:17.370 --> 00:53:18.540 Niels Floor: yeah two thumbs up. 333 00:53:19.200 --> 00:53:20.310 Niels Floor: that's another. 334 00:53:21.660 --> 00:53:24.000 Matthew Schmidt: Good oh you you just made by evening. 335 00:53:25.170 --> 00:53:35.880 Matthew Schmidt: This evening for neil's and on that note neil's i'm sure it's getting a little bit late for you, I want to thank you so much for taking some time to talk to the AC T constituency. 336 00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:45.090 Matthew Schmidt: And i'd like to pitch something that that neil's kind of leads, which is the LSD conference it's called Alex de con. 337 00:53:45.480 --> 00:53:49.920 Matthew Schmidt: It just finished up this year I think it's in the seventh year. 338 00:53:50.490 --> 00:53:51.270 Matthew Schmidt: Running yeah. 339 00:53:52.530 --> 00:53:53.700 Matthew Schmidt: Though here's the link. 340 00:53:53.760 --> 00:53:55.440 Matthew Schmidt: To it if you guys are interested. 341 00:53:56.520 --> 00:54:00.750 Matthew Schmidt: it's annual I presume it's happening next year is that correct neil's. 342 00:54:01.230 --> 00:54:07.410 Niels Floor: yeah we're just we're trying to decide if it's going to be a physical conference or a virtual conference you know. 343 00:54:08.940 --> 00:54:13.650 Niels Floor: really would like to have a physical conference, once more, and possibly. 344 00:54:15.240 --> 00:54:21.030 Niels Floor: Possibly we're going to do with not in the Netherlands, but in the United States of America. 345 00:54:21.480 --> 00:54:30.240 Matthew Schmidt: that'd be lovely well you all have the link now and that's something that i'll definitely be following up on and and. 346 00:54:30.240 --> 00:54:31.440 Matthew Schmidt: watching closely. 347 00:54:33.030 --> 00:54:47.700 Matthew Schmidt: Again it's been going on for seven years it traditionally it's been it's been face to face this i'm sorry it's been online and it's it's very affordable as well, I want to say it was like 50 euros to register. 348 00:54:48.150 --> 00:55:02.490 Niels Floor: Well, the the we've done for physical conferences and three virtual the virtual are 95 euros, which is $100 for four days of LSD phone. 349 00:55:03.090 --> 00:55:14.160 Niels Floor: that's really cheap but because we also have people from from from Africa from Asia from South America, you know, we want to make sure they're able to join so that's why we keep it cheap and it's a not for profit event. 350 00:55:15.210 --> 00:55:15.750 Matthew Schmidt: Well boy. 351 00:55:15.870 --> 00:55:18.810 Niels Floor: that's fine I just entered my email address in the chat so. 352 00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:23.940 Niels Floor: If you have any questions send me an email i'd be happy to talk. 353 00:55:24.630 --> 00:55:27.150 Matthew Schmidt: Good well i'm going to go ahead and stop the recording now.