WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.650 --> 00:00:05.990 Matthew Schmidt: Very good. Welcome everyone to uh. Yet another 2 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:26.759 Matthew Schmidt: installment of the design and Development division's Learning, experience, Design, Webinar Series Today, i'm. Very excited to present two authors who recently published a chapter in the edited volume user and Learner Experience design that was released on ed techbooks. 3 00:00:26.770 --> 00:00:54.580 Matthew Schmidt: Um, i'm going to do a quick introduction of today's speakers. The first is, uh, to take Kavanaugh Bro, who is a lecture at the University of Paris and Tier in the field of uh education and training sciences, specializing in adult learning and instructional design, as well as Danny's, a Phd. Research associate also at the University of Paris; that there was also authors, 4 00:00:54.590 --> 00:01:06.969 denis cristol: twenty books on leadership, management and professional training. We're looking forward to your Webinar topic today, and on that note i'll pass the microphone to you. Thank you so much. 5 00:01:07.210 --> 00:01:08.410 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: Thank you. 6 00:01:08.420 --> 00:01:24.119 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: So welcome everybody. We are very happy to share with you some findings of the research conducted at the Cnfpt, and which led to a publication of a chapter in the book that we presented afterwards. 7 00:01:24.130 --> 00:01:39.529 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: So we'll speak about learner experience, design in professional environments, and we've shared with you research and practitioner perspectives on the co-design of a mooc on public innovation. 8 00:01:41.910 --> 00:02:01.349 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: So we have been introduced already, so I will be with that very quick. So I have a Kg. In training science. I'm. A lecturer at University of Paris, and I'm. Also a learner, experience designer and project management and researcher in the corporate university in France. 9 00:02:01.670 --> 00:02:02.759 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: Tennis. 10 00:02:02.950 --> 00:02:21.419 denis cristol: Yes, my main job is to be innovation director in a training center for Si Hao and the Hamiltonian of. So it's a set at the University of Paris, Monterey. So monomaniac of writing about. 11 00:02:31.200 --> 00:02:39.000 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: Okay, So maybe we can start with knowing a little bit about more about you, Dennis. Can you 12 00:02:39.570 --> 00:02:43.820 denis cristol: help us? Yes. 13 00:02:44.410 --> 00:03:02.700 denis cristol: Ah, the overview of the design case. We We first speak about the ceremony and the context of the case in the French administration. Then we'll speak about the co-design process. 14 00:03:24.300 --> 00:03:42.860 denis cristol: First we want to know who is in the 15 00:03:47.970 --> 00:04:04.689 denis cristol: yes, Ah, just ah, maybe a little time to sort of ice-breaker. Did you accept an icebreaker? You can put your in on the on the chat It's okay for your smaller icebreaker? 16 00:04:09.090 --> 00:04:10.700 denis cristol: Yes, right? 17 00:04:11.370 --> 00:04:13.620 denis cristol: Okay, 18 00:04:15.250 --> 00:04:25.460 denis cristol: Okay, if you just want to do it. Size breaker, you just have to do. One thing is to go to the window 19 00:04:25.670 --> 00:04:27.190 denis cristol: to open the window 20 00:04:27.200 --> 00:04:31.099 denis cristol: near your of your desk to breaking the 21 00:04:31.380 --> 00:04:42.599 denis cristol: with your nose and breath out with your mouth. Just take a few seconds to to breathe. It's. It's okay for you 22 00:04:49.280 --> 00:04:52.220 denis cristol: if you. If you're right, you can do this now. 23 00:05:16.700 --> 00:05:20.220 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: So we have some instructional designers with us, 24 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:24.450 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: Professor. 25 00:05:24.500 --> 00:05:27.159 denis cristol: Yes, thanks. Noah. 26 00:05:31.930 --> 00:05:33.330 denis cristol: Okay. 27 00:05:36.860 --> 00:05:38.659 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: Some researchers. 28 00:05:39.650 --> 00:05:41.070 denis cristol: Hello, Ahmed. 29 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:52.180 denis cristol: Hello, Baseball! 30 00:06:07.470 --> 00:06:09.279 denis cristol: Okay. A few shafts up. 31 00:06:09.290 --> 00:06:10.920 denis cristol: Tactam to 32 00:06:11.560 --> 00:06:20.550 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: prayer somebody from Africa. Zimbabwe. Welcome. We are in Paris right now with Venice. Sorry 33 00:06:22.200 --> 00:06:26.030 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: Uh: I need to stop this. 34 00:06:29.570 --> 00:06:30.750 denis cristol: Okay, 35 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:32.120 denis cristol: Um, 36 00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:34.439 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: I don't know. Sorry. 37 00:06:34.700 --> 00:06:37.879 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: And then we have a Pg. Student. Hello, Cindy, 38 00:06:40.990 --> 00:06:44.620 denis cristol: singly from Illinois and Unesco. 39 00:06:47.020 --> 00:06:49.769 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: Okay, So maybe we can um 40 00:06:50.110 --> 00:06:52.800 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: start again, Dennis, with the 41 00:06:53.510 --> 00:06:56.039 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: I know. First I will. Yeah. Servings 42 00:07:15.940 --> 00:07:29.620 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: that would try to demonstrate how a mixed methodology using back to battery and codeside would help in the process of engineering a book on public innovation. 43 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:39.130 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: So that's a schedule of the webinar that Denis presented a few minutes ago. Maybe you can 44 00:07:39.200 --> 00:07:42.789 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: um present it again tennis if you want. 45 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:58.749 denis cristol: Yes, if you're on b terrical ground. First, the context of the case in a French public administration, the co-design process, which is a participatory design process a professional perspective. 46 00:08:04.210 --> 00:08:20.039 denis cristol: So the first thing I want to to speak about is participate to redesign. We we get inspired by Scandinavian approach of design to change society, 47 00:08:20.050 --> 00:08:34.969 denis cristol: not only a product, but to all the society for us. The use of that spectral design is a way to get people 48 00:09:44.880 --> 00:10:00.540 denis cristol: ah center of interest. A project can be led by design by research, tech user as subject or a user as a partner. 49 00:10:01.030 --> 00:10:05.969 denis cristol: Main point for us is design on emotion. 50 00:10:40.610 --> 00:10:42.279 denis cristol: You can go home. 51 00:10:44.740 --> 00:11:01.549 denis cristol: Your microphone. Yes, it was off. So basically what's really important in participatory design is that the user is seen as a partner, and in order to accompany the change management. 52 00:11:01.560 --> 00:11:06.730 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: But we also wrote with the 53 00:11:06.740 --> 00:11:23.049 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: field of Co-design, which is another way of designing, and it is a bit different in that we design working with collaboration, and it's mixing together a lot of people, 54 00:11:23.060 --> 00:11:34.130 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: designers, users, novice experts in our case citizens, or trainer, consultant, and public servants, 55 00:11:34.140 --> 00:11:52.719 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: and what's in the ground of the philosophy of co-design is that anybody is an expert regarding their own experience, and anybody can mobilize its own practical knowledge and experience your knowledge. That's why we we try to 56 00:11:52.740 --> 00:11:54.180 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: two 57 00:11:54.400 --> 00:12:06.980 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: to analyze this book which used both those methods of design not message approaches, which is co-design and battery design. 58 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:12.039 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: So maybe you can tell us about the context, 59 00:12:26.070 --> 00:12:44.090 denis cristol: major one in a rob on this institution. Work for public servants in many administration territorial administration, so Roman goals is to help 60 00:13:00.640 --> 00:13:18.910 denis cristol: help many people from many countries, because France has a great geographical area from Asia Pacific 61 00:13:46.870 --> 00:13:50.150 denis cristol: to spread this knowledge. 62 00:13:52.990 --> 00:13:55.650 denis cristol: Um, you can go on. 63 00:13:55.660 --> 00:13:56.859 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: Okay, Go on. 64 00:13:57.560 --> 00:13:59.620 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: Okay. So um, 65 00:13:59.670 --> 00:14:03.070 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: i'm sharing now with the project timeline of the look. 66 00:14:03.220 --> 00:14:23.159 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: So the book was decided by sponsors among them where we are Deli, and it the more can also process of the design of the book and to co-design of the work where what I studied doing my research. 67 00:14:23.170 --> 00:14:28.599 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: And so we started with this intention. Note of 68 00:14:28.610 --> 00:14:57.539 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: you know this this goal to do to move that would reach all the civil servants, and also the citizens interested in public innovation. Because public administration is a is a very large in France. You can. People are working in a city hall. They are working in schools. They are working in hospitals. So the intention was really doing something very back to category. 69 00:15:15.850 --> 00:15:29.699 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: So the design of the mooc took around eighteen months, and it involved a lot of people. The design team itself changed from workshops to workshops in order to 70 00:15:29.710 --> 00:15:47.080 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: integrates the user perspective user as a subject and as well as the users, are as partners, because the goal of the institution was also to have people being able to lead the change and and to conduct innovation. 71 00:15:47.210 --> 00:15:48.899 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: So um! 72 00:15:49.280 --> 00:16:04.670 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: Here you can see the several working workshops that were organized, and between these workshops. The team design was a building up design of the book itself, 73 00:16:05.930 --> 00:16:07.380 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: so um 74 00:16:07.390 --> 00:16:14.260 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: will maybe go deeper with the pictures, explaining how how it worked, 75 00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:21.019 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: so you can maybe give us all the means. The institution was had to build this book. 76 00:17:02.910 --> 00:17:06.330 denis cristol: The third is design thinking the 77 00:17:06.560 --> 00:17:23.610 denis cristol: we get held with designers, art thinkers and developers, computer developers, programmers to design the 78 00:17:46.320 --> 00:17:57.099 denis cristol: the method of design thinking. We take the brawn definition a discipline, but use the design of sensibility and methods to match people Me, 79 00:18:08.130 --> 00:18:20.190 denis cristol: for example, we we ask people to see users in the streets and answer them the way. 80 00:18:51.060 --> 00:19:07.619 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: Ok, So we wanted to share with you some pictures. So the approach was our parts battery, design, and Co-design, and the method where among the message we use design thinking and design, thinking was a 81 00:19:07.630 --> 00:19:20.950 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: used to produce prototypes, as well as to test the prototypes, to build the book instead of building and engineering this book. 82 00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:37.149 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: Um, starting with the objectives, the course, the topics, the teams we started with, what people learning in this book we do and would do 83 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:48.429 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: so. That's how we worked building and engineering this book, and it was almost the other way around, and at the end 84 00:19:48.440 --> 00:20:07.690 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: it was decided which topic we would put inside into the course. So the prototypes, Maybe I can the prototypes Where? So the macro-design of the prototypes of the movement was prototype, 85 00:20:07.700 --> 00:20:19.190 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: and it was also we asked some civil servants and trainer and consultants participating in the workshop to visualize 86 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:33.989 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: how they would go through. They would go through the smoke, and what would they do? And how would they learn? And starting from that we build? They build some prototypes, and after this prototyping 87 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.340 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: phases, uh, 88 00:20:36.940 --> 00:20:51.960 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: we, these prototypes we are tested by users and by specialists, and I have such another prototype in clinic, for instance, the participants and the stakeholders of the book. 89 00:20:51.970 --> 00:21:08.989 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: We were prototypes several times during the First World War in March that question in the timeline, and at the end we we had to prototype again all the stakeholders to make sure everybody would, 90 00:21:09.520 --> 00:21:28.890 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: and every people working in public innovation, and every facilitators of this book would be included as a partners. And as for the testing phases, this is a picture of the Learning Lab. After a morning 91 00:21:29.750 --> 00:21:36.590 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: training consultants, users, and two big servants. In the morning they they designed how the 92 00:21:36.600 --> 00:21:40.599 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: learners would go through the book, and then they 93 00:21:40.610 --> 00:22:03.899 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: we presented it to a specialist to a specialist in open innovation in working in Canada. And she was online, and she only asked them some some questions about what they presented without asking them any answers, and then so it helps. And you, those thinking but what 94 00:22:03.910 --> 00:22:09.980 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: what they did and how relevant it was, and then they could go back and and prototype again. 95 00:22:10.030 --> 00:22:13.850 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: Another tasting phase is here. You have the 96 00:22:13.860 --> 00:22:32.869 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: here is the designing of the path of the user of the different learners and what they do, and in which condition and another team who was working on the content, tested and gave the ideas, and here it was in the last workshop. 97 00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:42.799 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: It was during the public, the university of Innovation. During the summer 98 00:22:42.810 --> 00:22:56.630 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: they asked all the participants of the University to come and to read the objective of the book, and to choose in which one they would identify and other research. 99 00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:19.029 denis cristol: What happened at the beginning. Um, those consoles. I wanted to build a Connectivist book and Asean because all the users could share how they would ah collaborate and participate and learn. The the book ended up with two different paths that the next would share 100 00:23:19.040 --> 00:23:20.399 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: right now 101 00:23:51.620 --> 00:23:55.899 denis cristol: was a a to 102 00:24:25.940 --> 00:24:42.719 denis cristol: a main thing we we want to share with you is the concept of learners in French. We have two words to speak about learning. 103 00:25:10.460 --> 00:25:14.340 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: I I need to start sharing the name, because 104 00:25:15.590 --> 00:25:16.670 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: yes, 105 00:25:30.610 --> 00:25:33.290 denis cristol: it's Okay, 106 00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:34.940 you. 107 00:25:34.950 --> 00:25:41.259 denis cristol: You can hear the sound. I can hear the sound without the picture. Now. Okay, thank you. 108 00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:46.690 We voluntarily make a distinction between learning and openness to learning. 109 00:25:46.700 --> 00:26:11.259 Feelings are part of our everyday experience. In a way each situation flows through us, and learning is the mark that the experience leaves behind open. This to learning consists in a willingness to understand channel, and master said Flow. When an experience flows through an entire group, the arts left in each member's experience combine into one willingness to learn and master the pillow as a group is what we call collect 110 00:26:11.270 --> 00:26:34.159 denis cristol: openness to learning, openness to learning. Thereby consists in the various qualities that enable an individual to learn in every situation, be it formal, informal, selected by the learner, or set up by their company. In order to further our understanding of openness to learning. Let's explore the three dimensions that define willingness, know how and 111 00:26:40.100 --> 00:26:53.169 willingness to learn is simply an individual's motivation to learn. It starts with understanding our own personal motivations, followed by the will to take action, and of course, the will to persist in order to meet our goals. 112 00:26:53.180 --> 00:27:02.590 This dimension comes with aspiration, effort, and gratification, knowing how to learn, consists in focusing our attention on learning, 113 00:27:02.600 --> 00:27:12.169 learning how to learn is a hot topic these days, but I feel that it all boils down to an individual's willingness to go with the flow. 114 00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:21.240 Conditions to learn is a combination of favorable environments, appropriate material and psychological resources and support from our colleagues. 115 00:27:21.570 --> 00:27:22.710 You, 116 00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:54.639 as its name indicates, collective openness to learning, refers to willingness, know how and environment to learn as a group willingness to learn together entails having a common goal greater than any individual 117 00:27:54.650 --> 00:28:19.080 job to co- facilitate each other's professional relationships and learn these conditions to learn together means setting collective learning, goals, negotiating and using the resources at hand. It also means meaning on the feeling of a place sometimes exceeding its limits, or even better drawing inspiration. 118 00:28:30.450 --> 00:28:33.839 denis cristol: Uh, we don't see the picture. But um! 119 00:28:34.030 --> 00:28:36.970 denis cristol: The audio was very clear. I think so. 120 00:28:36.980 --> 00:28:49.530 denis cristol: Yes, i'm sorry I didn't know you couldn't see the video basically You see, Dennis explaining what you heard, 121 00:28:49.540 --> 00:28:54.039 denis cristol: i'm smart and I real. 122 00:28:55.500 --> 00:29:10.070 denis cristol: So we we get the concept of farming readiness. We create a neologist and learn to describe this attitude. 123 00:29:17.460 --> 00:29:19.800 denis cristol: Uh um, 124 00:29:20.230 --> 00:29:26.850 denis cristol: the way we we chose to to follow all over the building of this move. The 125 00:29:33.790 --> 00:29:34.920 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: Yes. 126 00:29:35.480 --> 00:29:39.480 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: So participation. 127 00:29:39.490 --> 00:30:07.480 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: It is not always easy, as you can imagine, especially when you you design with different people, with different skills. And here are some conditions of this participation. You cannot decide that there will be participation. You have to to facilitate it, but it's not not that easy? So what what we learn to do in this case is that 128 00:30:07.490 --> 00:30:19.959 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: and during the workshop, and even in between, we have to make sure all the participants have access to the relevant information, especially when we ask some civil servant to 129 00:30:19.970 --> 00:30:43.619 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: to build and to prototype some parts of the mook. It was not that easy for them, even if they had all the skills and the expertise regarding public innovation and public administration. They had to have the right 130 00:30:43.630 --> 00:30:53.910 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: the right way of how to produce a teaser. So the relevant information is really important, and you have to have this information with you during the workshop. 131 00:31:00.390 --> 00:31:30.319 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: You you also need to be very open-minded, because we had very, very different point of view, because the French administration is very, very large, and, as I said, it's in a lot of fields so and and most of all we also had among the users. We had some people, you know, all. We already train innovation and change management, and some others. Ah! Which were Ah, 132 00:31:30.330 --> 00:31:44.910 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: I know these learners, and so all the points of you had to be taken into account. It's also very important to be very transparent on the methods and and the goals, and what will be, 133 00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:53.759 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: what will be done, and how the prototype would be used. And so communication is one of the keys 134 00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:16.539 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: during this this design, and it it was also ah to be able to to have some arrangements and to alphonetic technical, organizational. Sometimes we use the technology sometime. It's just a prototype with raw materials, and it has to be very, very smooth and and and 135 00:32:17.040 --> 00:32:23.760 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: the mean has to be very accessible in order for people to participate, 136 00:32:41.640 --> 00:33:00.790 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: and also how the end users could learn from their participation and reserves which were novice at the beginning. They became real leaders during the book, and they organized, You know, the 137 00:33:00.800 --> 00:33:12.929 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: the group station that Dennis was talking about. Some of them were the leaders of this book station and working on wheel projects. So it was a really good benefit, 138 00:33:12.940 --> 00:33:41.529 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: and as well as for today's magazine and the designers compared to the traditional way of doing instructional design where you have your adi methodology and everything is very well organized. They had to adapt their mindset, and to change as well, because, as you. As we said before, the book changed a lot from the first 139 00:33:41.540 --> 00:33:47.019 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: intentional note to the, to the one who was organized and and opened. 140 00:33:47.120 --> 00:34:03.130 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: So loner experience, design result in the creation of playing the two training course, as we said, and which was not really anticipated at the beginning, and as well as 141 00:34:03.140 --> 00:34:23.729 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: as Dennis was saying, it was what we could call a ibred or blended, because it was as well as distance, learning as well as as a group, and project learning in all the different administrations that were following them 142 00:34:39.850 --> 00:34:49.569 denis cristol: on testing teams. So we organize, maybe a four to five workshop. I don't remember exactly the number 143 00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:13.089 denis cristol: we need in this process of 144 00:35:49.740 --> 00:36:18.709 denis cristol: we try all over the process to cultivate open unwillingness to try new things. I remember you. The main point is to develop a community of public innovators on the main point for innovation is to collaborate and to be open. And so the the design of the book was a way to develop this crystal 145 00:36:18.720 --> 00:36:19.600 denis cristol: mine. 146 00:37:26.730 --> 00:37:28.470 denis cristol: Um! 147 00:37:56.280 --> 00:38:15.880 denis cristol: Within nearly four years come with a summer university of innovation. We we get trend nearly well. 148 00:38:16.120 --> 00:38:28.530 denis cristol: Five thousand people physically meeting themselves on where a trend with the smoke. So we we can help. 149 00:39:08.390 --> 00:39:16.490 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: Yes, and um, yeah, The The milk is still on every year, sometimes a tapping on, sometimes twice a year, and it eat me 150 00:39:31.780 --> 00:39:44.989 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: a very critical characteristic of a book which enable it to to evolve every day, and to grow this community that they is about, 151 00:39:45.390 --> 00:39:48.039 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: even though it it took a long time. And 152 00:40:35.070 --> 00:40:36.399 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: to answer 153 00:40:51.640 --> 00:40:57.319 denis cristol: the first question is, there are other? Maybe we can go directly to the second. 154 00:41:22.930 --> 00:41:33.529 Matthew Schmidt: We have a quiet group today. Friends, let me just remind everyone. Please feel free to use the chat. If you're feeling, maybe a little bit shy and not wanting to grab the microphone. 155 00:41:54.250 --> 00:41:56.579 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: Ah, maybe I can find it. 156 00:42:01.070 --> 00:42:02.720 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: Stop sharing. 157 00:42:17.010 --> 00:42:19.129 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: Okay, There is a 158 00:42:19.250 --> 00:42:23.179 denis cristol: uh. There is a first uh answer. 159 00:42:23.210 --> 00:42:30.900 denis cristol: What are the implications of this work? To the broader fan of instructional design? 160 00:42:34.820 --> 00:42:36.289 denis cristol: It's a good question. 161 00:42:36.300 --> 00:42:39.109 denis cristol: Yes, you want to start, or 162 00:42:39.250 --> 00:42:40.490 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: I start 163 00:42:40.570 --> 00:42:41.629 denis cristol: Oh, 164 00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:50.800 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: um from a soldier point of view. What I would say is that 165 00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:59.250 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: we had a professional dispute with Dennis about. That about. This is co-design, and 166 00:42:59.330 --> 00:43:18.140 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: but it's part of it that's scary design in social or design, and we don't agree so we we not fight tonight together, but from my point of view, and what I've seen in literature is that as a field of institutional design is is changing. It 167 00:43:18.150 --> 00:43:23.440 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: has been changing for a few years now, and how you can see it in the book, 168 00:43:23.450 --> 00:43:40.579 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: really. Ah, there's been a ah turning point. Ah, from you know, working on content to working on on on the user and and how the learners, and not only the learners 169 00:43:40.590 --> 00:43:56.719 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: and among the users, you have the learners as well as the facilitators and all the the training team, and it's like you're not changing radically the way to build things. It takes time. It's. It's one 170 00:43:56.730 --> 00:44:14.789 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: really another way around. And so from the searching point of view, I think it's a broading of the instructional design build, and from a partitional point of view, I'm: 171 00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:34.450 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: We're currently trying to develop this way of doing instructional design. And it's not that easy in the field, because you don't always have a resource with you, and it's easy regarding the training training teams because we can 172 00:44:34.530 --> 00:44:37.049 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: manage to to 173 00:44:37.260 --> 00:44:48.389 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: co design with them. But regarding the end users right now we we try to work starting with 174 00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:57.969 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: research, you know, before starting designing any any training course, we we do some 175 00:45:02.420 --> 00:45:19.200 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: a survey. Yeah, we do some survey with with end users with learners, or we go to the training room and we ask them. We. 176 00:45:19.210 --> 00:45:34.989 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: We ask them questions about how they learn what's the best way for them to learn and what they need to learn. And then, you know, we lose person as and we build 177 00:45:43.960 --> 00:46:03.590 denis cristol: something human centered in my interview 178 00:46:54.830 --> 00:47:18.659 denis cristol: on for the question of pat you about the perception in France. I'm not sure this 179 00:47:18.670 --> 00:47:38.499 denis cristol: two, many times in a specific training center, closely interested in social design and social learning. So I don't see a traditional way to do learning, 180 00:47:45.720 --> 00:47:59.360 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: and we have a question about elementary students. I don't see why you could not do that with elementary students as long as 181 00:47:59.780 --> 00:48:14.800 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: erez agmoni. You have in mind that you, those students are the experts of their learning, and are taken into account as partners. I think it could be a great challenge and one hundred and one 182 00:48:14.940 --> 00:48:28.199 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: mit ctl, and and it would lead to to something very interesting. So I would be interested. If you do that, Rami. Sorry with me to share with us how it works. One hundred and fifty, 183 00:49:08.840 --> 00:49:11.580 denis cristol: Maybe I made one to to speak. 184 00:49:12.300 --> 00:49:19.220 Ahmed Lachheb: Maxi Baku. I've enjoyed listening to you. I enjoyed your presentation 185 00:49:19.960 --> 00:49:47.639 Ahmed Lachheb: a lot of what he said for me causes some ethical uh questions, and uh kind of like, bring some uh points of discussion of debate about specifically design ethics and the decided responsibility. Um, I understand the virtue of participating design. It's one of the things that it's one of those things that, as you actually said, very beautiful to read about, very beautiful to inspire enough, but quite complicated and hard to do on actually, 186 00:49:47.840 --> 00:50:17.820 Ahmed Lachheb: yeah, as you. I'm gonna start my question from the last thing you said, as you said, learners that are not a target, but they are part, and they should be thought that that way. In that case, if we think of our learners as part of designers, so what what is our responsibility as designers in the sense that um uh, if learners can just learn by themselves or learn this, can create their own learning experiences. Uh, why do we have to have 187 00:50:17.830 --> 00:50:31.289 Ahmed Lachheb: questions uh called learning designers. Uh, Why, Matt Schmidt is actually teaching future learning designers how we just teach all of us to learn by ourselves, and just go with that. 188 00:50:31.650 --> 00:50:53.800 denis cristol: Oh, thank you for the for the question for me. It's the main point of transition for our jobs. I'm very penetrated with the way concept a Chinese concept which say, a go without go. 189 00:50:53.880 --> 00:50:57.149 denis cristol: An intention without intention is, 190 00:51:24.910 --> 00:51:44.549 denis cristol: if you remember, Al bear bond. You are Ah, we get the concept of self-directed learning. A self-direction of these learning is the main topics to learn by one cells. So each time you can put people 191 00:51:44.580 --> 00:51:57.470 denis cristol: in the situation. They develop their their cell direction to learn. You can grow them, to grow their own desire to learn. 192 00:52:08.660 --> 00:52:23.820 denis cristol: But the more difficult things is to create the condition, the context at people to develop by themselves the desire to learn so. 193 00:53:09.520 --> 00:53:28.720 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: And I think our professional field has a great time to come, because there's a lot of job to do, because when you have different paths of learning, it's more work for you, because you still have to create some content. You still have to facilitate 194 00:53:28.730 --> 00:53:56.460 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: the way to learn. You still have to try to match the constraint of of enterprise, of administration. They have, you know training objectives. And then you have this learning that this is talking about is how you make it much. You know also, knowing you have on the theory of learnings or the 195 00:53:56.470 --> 00:54:02.390 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: design skills. It is not, It's not, 196 00:54:12.030 --> 00:54:13.660 Ahmed Lachheb: thank you, excellent 197 00:54:14.090 --> 00:54:25.610 Matthew Schmidt: and and thank you, Gavote and Davis. We are just about out of time. And so I think that we can go ahead and wrap up. Was there anything else that you wanted to say at this point? 198 00:54:26.090 --> 00:54:29.870 Dorothée Cavignaux-Bros: No, it's okay. Thank you so much 199 00:54:30.410 --> 00:54:37.219 Matthew Schmidt: perfect. Thank you so much. We very much appreciate it. I'm going to go ahead and stop the recording.